Bathorrom Policy at my former "christian" Church

Dear readers:

If you've been following me, you have heard about the many problems in my life at the moment. My marriage, my church and the military are the three biggest issues in my life at the moment.
This post details the difficulties that myself and some of my friends have faced at the hands of "Celebration Church" here in New Orleans.

What I've added below is the message thread between Pastor Patrick Eagan from the Saint Bernard campus of Celebration Church in New Orleans. And about 3/4 way down thread is the main campus pastor of the Celebration Church; pastor Dennis Watson.
The first couple of email exchanges are from shortly after I started going to this church over a year ago at this point. The pastor has just emailed me and thanked me for attending and then asked how my first small group was.

If you're familiar with transgender issues, you know that bathrooms are at the top of the list. It seems everybody looses their minds when trans people have to use the bathroom. After seeing the meltdowns, a lot of trans people decide that the bathroom issue is just not worth the fight or hassle. I was no different. The surprising thing is that I didn't have a problem with bathrooms at this church in the 9 months I was going there because I never used the bathroom at church. Surprising, huh? How many of you have been 9 months at church without using the facilities?
Trans people do this all the time for reasons described below.

What started this whole debacle is that I had a friend visiting and she used the bathroom. During discussions with the pastor; which you'll see below, you'll see that he refers to that "incident" as "someone" seeing my friend use the "inappropriate" bathroom.
You would think that maybe a concerned parent or maybe some elderly grandmother or someone had a problem or my friend maybe did something untoward. You would be wrong.
The problem was someone from the churches' own staff!
I didn't find this out until later when I pressed the pastors about what actually "happened". As it turns out, nothing happened. My friend simply used the bathroom. The churches solution as you'll see below is to have trans people use the anatomically correct bathroom.

The problems start on May 1st, 2013. After attending the church since August 2012, I received an email from the pastor that you'll read in the thread below. But, just in case you miss it, I'll post it here in italics so you can see that the pastor is being underhanded and scheming in the email. He disguises his intentions by asking me to come in and chat with him. Knowing full well what he was going to tell me would change everything. In his email however, things are humming along just fine and the pastor just wants to get to know his flock. Read it and weep:

"I was wondering if you had any time this week to drop by the office and chat. You know, it's occurred to me that there is much about your life and lifestyle that I don't understand, but I would like to. Please let me know when might be a good time. Thanks.

Patrick Eagan"

The part that really steams me is that he knew all along what was going on and lied to me about the purpose of our chat. He didn't want to know anything about a supposed "lifestyle" or me and as gullible as I am, I fell for it. Read my email, I was practically singing how great the church is when he sent that first email, indicating none of the concerns he had or of any problems he was aware.
Besides, is there even such a thing as a transgender lifestyle? Give me a break.
And then for the pastors to lie and insinuate that there was a long standing policy regarding bathroom usage when it was made up on the spot is galling and sinful.
Like I said many times in my emails to them, May God have mercy on their souls.

Anyway, here are the emails. older first, newer at the bottom.............

From: thissupergirlrocks@yahoo.com [thissupergirlrocks@yahoo.com]

Sent: Tuesday, August 07, 2012 9:46 AM

To: Patrick Eagan

Subject: Oops

Hey Pastor,

This is Caroline. We met on Sunday @ church and @ small group.

I accidentally sent u an empty email just a minute ago. I was putting your contact info in my phone and pressed the wrong button.

I was going to send you an email later today to just say hi and really to thank you and your church for welcoming me.

It turns out that my roommate works with one of your small group leaders. Small world. Apparently, Jennifer and I saw each other but never met.

It wasn't until my roomie and Jennifer were talking yesterday and realized that they had something else in common. Me.

Neat.

Anyway, I'm going to talk to her and find out which group she is in and join that one.

Again, thanks for the warm welcome!

Regards,

Caroline

Sent from my Verizon Wireless BlackBerry

Sent: Tuesday, August 07, 2012

From: Pastor Patrick Eagan

To: thissupergirlrocks@yahoo.com

Hey Caroline,

I actually sent an email earlier today to carolineannelhuillier@yahoo.com. I don't know if you received it or if I got the address wrong. Anyway, I sent it just to say that it was a pleasure having you at Life Group and I hope you enjoyed it. I have to say, I'm not surprised you have a connection to Jenn. She reminds me of that game, what was it, 7 degrees to Kevin Bacon - the one where you could connect any celebrity to Kevin Bacon in 7 or fewer steps. I think all of St. Bernard is somehow connected to Jenn. If you want to try Jenn's Life Group that would be absolutely fine. They meet on Sunday night at 5 as well.  If it's alright, I'll forward your information on to her so that she can connect with you and give you a better idea of what to expect. Please let me know if there's anything else I can do for you!

Patrick Eagan
Campus Pastor
Celebration Church - St. Bernard Campus
7500 W Judge Perez, Arabi, LA 70032
504-858-0537

Sent: Tuesday, August 07, 2012

From: Pastor Patrick Eagan

To: thissupergirlrocks@yahoo.com

Caroline,

I wanted to thank you for attending our Life Group on Sunday. I hope you found everybody as welcoming as I promised they would be. I admit, I really didn't expect our discussion to start on such a grave tone, with the first question asking "What's the hardest thing you've been through in life." Nevertheless, it seemed like we were able to make the most of it. Please know that I'm praying for you this week. I hope you'll decide to come back next week. If you'd like to try some of our other Life Groups, that's fine too. I'd be happy to help connect you. Please let me know if there's anything else I can do for you!

Patrick Eagan
Campus Pastor
Celebration Church - St. Bernard Campus
7500 W Judge Perez, Arabi, LA 70032
504-858-0537

------Original Message------
From: Pastor Patrick Eagan
To: thissupergirlrocks@yahoo.com
Subject: Howdy
Sent: May 1, 2013 11:06

Caroline,

I was wondering if you had any time this week to drop by the office and chat. You know, it's occurred to me that there is much about your life and lifestyle that I don't understand, but I would like to. Please let me know when might be a good time. Thanks.

Patrick Eagan
Campus Pastor
Celebration Church - St. Bernard Campus
7500 W Judge Perez, Arabi, LA 70032
504-858-0537

*************************

From: Caroline
To: Pastor Patrick
Subject: Howdy
Sent: May 1, 2013

Hey Pastor,
Thanks for caring and being interested.
So many times "we" get dismissed due to preconceived notions about being transgendered, it's always refreshing to be able to enlighten.
The message this past weekend was on target as well.  It resonated so deeply with me and my visitors. The idea that hugs and showing visible and verbal signs of love could change a life was so right on. It struck me how different life could be for so many of us trans people. We get rejection on a daily basis and as a result there is a lot of healing that needs to take place.

I've told you before that I was "nervous" coming to this church because it looked so much like the last three churches I was kicked out of. I needn't have worried. 

I've been consistently surprised at the Godly love, friendship and support show by the congregation.  
I have counted on this each time I bring a new person to church. I know a lot of hurting people that need a healing church. I think that God has led me to the right place.

I'm available today, tomorrow after 0830 and until 1100 on Friday.

Blessings******************************

------Original Message------
From: Pastor Patrick Eagan
To: Caroline L'huillier
Subject: RE: Howdy
Sent: May 1, 2013 13:41

Caroline,

To clarify, did you mean 0830 tomorrow as in military time? If that's the case could we meet at 2pm at the church (I suppose that would be 1400 military time)? 

Patrick Eagan
Campus Pastor
Celebration Church - St. Bernard Campus
7500 W Judge Perez, Arabi, LA 70032
504-858-0537

------Original Message------
To: Pastor Patrick Eagan
Subject: Re: Howdy
Sent: May 1, 2013 14:04

2pm is fine. 
caroline

To: Pastor Patrick Eagan
Subject: Re: Howdy

Sent: May 1, 2013

Hey Pastor,
I finally told Lauren about the bathroom policy at church. She wants to talk to you.
I would like to give her your email address, but she said that she'd meet, too if you think that would be better.
Your thoughts?
Regards,
Caroline

-----Original Message-----
From: Patrick Eagan <patricke@celebrationchurch.org>
Date: Wed, 15 May 2013 14:13:18
To: thissupergirlrocks@yahoo.com<thissupergirlrocks@yahoo.com>
Subject: RE: Howdy

Caroline,

I am happy to dialogue with Lauren via email or in person. Personally, the more sensitive the subject matter, the more I prefer to meet in person, because I've learned over the years that email conveys only a fraction of what is communicated in a face to face interaction. I do understand if it would be easier for Lauren to package her thoughts in an email, and if it necessitates a follow up conversation, we could do that as well. Thanks.

Patrick Eagan
Campus Pastor
Celebration Church - St. Bernard Campus
7500 W Judge Perez, Arabi, LA 70032
504-858-0537

________________________________________
From: Caroline Anne L'huillier [thissupergirlrocks@yahoo.com]
Sent: Wednesday, May 15, 2013 2:47 PM
To: Patrick Eagan
Subject: Re: Howdy

I agree about email not being a replacement for live dialogue and
Lauren is comfortable talking to you in person, so we should have any problems.
Her schedule is open, just the same I was hoping we could get together this week.
What do you think?
Caroline
Sent from my mobile

-----Original Message-----
From: Patrick Eagan <patricke@celebrationchurch.org>
Date: Wed, 15 May 2013 15:10:35 
To: thissupergirlrocks@yahoo.com<thissupergirlrocks@yahoo.com>
Subject: RE: Howdy

Caroline,

The rest of my week is full. However, I've still got some time before the following week fills up. When would be a good time next Tuesday, Wednesday, Thursday, or Friday?

Patrick Eagan
Campus Pastor
Celebration Church - St. Bernard Campus
7500 W Judge Perez, Arabi, LA 70032
504-858-0537

DATE AND TIME STAMP NOT AVAILABLE

Tuesday might work. Let's pencil that in.
I'll talk to lauren.
Sent from my mobile

________________________________
From: Caroline L'huillier [thissupergirlrocks@yahoo.com]
Sent: Monday, May 20, 2013 8:43 AM
To: Patrick Eagan
Subject: Re: Howdy

Hey Pastor,

Good Monday morning to you. I hope you are well. I've sent you some reading material. It should keep you busy for a while.
If you have questions you can always call me or email.

Btw, I've been reading this website for years and really respect Kathy and her views. Before you read the post below, read her bio here:http://canyonwalkerconnections.com/about-2/

and then read this post.

http://canyonwalkerconnections.com/transgenders-can-size-14-heels-keep-you-out-of-heaven/

Do you have a good time for the meeting tomorrow?
Regards,
Caroline

-----Original Message-----
From: Patrick Eagan <patricke@celebrationchurch.org>
Date: Mon, 20 May 2013 11:40:04 
To: Caroline L'huillier<thissupergirlrocks@yahoo.com>
Subject: RE: Howdy

Caroline, I should be free tomorrow in the morning. Around 10 ok?

Patrick Eagan
Campus Pastor
Celebration Church - St. Bernard Campus
7500 W Judge Perez, Arabi, LA 70032
504-858-0537

From: Caroline L'huillier [thissupergirlrocks@yahoo.com]
Sent: Monday, May 20, 2013
To: Patrick Eagan
Subject: Re: Howdy

10 is good. C u then.

Sent from my mobile

From: Caroline L'huillier [thissupergirlrocks@yahoo.com]
Sent: Monday, May 20, 2013 20:10
To: Patrick Eagan
Subject: Re: Howdy

Hey Pastor,

Here is another great resourse. I really respect this site and it's author.

http://www.gendertree.com/

C U tomorrow,

Caroline 

www.thissupergirlrocks.blogspot.com

From: Caroline L'huillier [thissupergirlrocks@yahoo.com]
Sent: Monday, May 21, 2013 13:20
To: Patrick Eagan
Subject: Re: Howdy

Pastor,

Why didn't you tell me about the bathroom policy in the beginning? This spiritual turmoil that I'm going through could have been avoided if you'd have mentioned this before.

How are you able to spiritually deal with gays and lesbians worshiping in your church, yet transsexuals are beyond you? 

Regards,
Caroline
Sent from my mobile

From: Patrick Eagan <patricke@celebrationchurch.org>
Date: Mon, 21 May 2013 16:40 
To: Caroline L'huillier<thissupergirlrocks@yahoo.com>
Subject: Follow-Up

Caroline,

I wanted to extend to you an invitation to resume our conversation from today. I thought it was unfortunate that our time ended so abruptly. My perspective is that we have loved you and accepted you for nearly a year since you've been part of our congregation. Certainly that has not changed. One of our church values is that loving relationships come before circumstances, conflicts, and procedures. I hope that you will accept my invitation to further our dialogue.

Patrick Eagan
Campus Pastor
Celebration Church - St. Bernard Campus
7500 W Judge Perez, Arabi, LA 70032
504-858-0537

________________________________
From: Caroline L'huillier [thissupergirlrocks@yahoo.com]
Sent: Tuesday, May 21, 2013 5:28 PM
To: Patrick Eagan
Subject: Re: Follow Up

Pastor,

Your concern is that our time ended abruptly? That's kind of missing the point, isn't it? You've loved me but you won't allow people whom you don't know to physically have the correct genitals to use a bathroom that they may or may not be qualified to use. Are there going to be bathroom police? Are you going to start requiring a driver's license check? Having panty checks should not even be in the discussion. What's in my heart is more important than what's in my pants.

Am I summing it up correctly? What else is there to discuss?
I'm open to more dialogue, but we have to start at the same place. This is not about bathrooms. It's about spirituality.

How about an answer to my previous question: How can you allow gays and lesbians into your services, but not trans people? I'm not suggesting that they should not be, but if you can make the mental and spiritual leap to allow them, how can you stumble on something so simple as this?

I was about two seconds away from email Pastor Dennis when this email came in. I'll hold it until you reply.
I would love to have a discussion with you and him. Maybe together we can get this problem solved.

Here is one of my favorite verses:
Galations 3:28
There is neither Jew nor Gentile, neither slave nor free, nor is there male and female, for you are all one in Christ Jesus

Regards,
Caroline


www.thissupergirlrocks.blogspot.com

-----Original Message-----

From: Patrick Eagan <patricke@celebrationchurch.org>

Date: Wed, 22 May 2013 09:50:34 

To: Caroline L'huillier<thissupergirlrocks@yahoo.com>

Subject: RE: Follow Up

Caroline,

Allow me to clarify some of my remarks, because evidently they were not clear.

First, I was disappointed that our conversation ended abruptly. Since you're correct in that this is a spiritual matter, since you have clearly been working on your faith these last 9 months, and since you are familiar enough with Scripture to quote Galatians 3:28, then we can agree that abruptly ending our conversation really took off the table the only remotely productive manner of possibly resolving this disagreement.

Second, nobody is suggesting that we add bathroom police.

Third, several times you have implied to me that there has been some change in your genitals. To tell the truth, all that I know about what you have is what you conveyed to me 9 months ago when you first attended our service. So if there has been some change, please make me aware.

Fourth, to summarize what I have stated about our bathroom policy up to this point, this is actually not a new policy. I would say we have always understood our bathrooms to be gender specific under objective anatomical guidelines. In a separate email, you questioned why this just now became an issue. To be perfectly honest, our view of gender identity and its application towards bathroom usage hasn't changed. When one of our members observed someone using the wrong bathroom, we were forced to either change our policy, to ignore the behavior and pretend that the policy wasn't important, or engage the issue. It just recently became an issue because a transgendered person just recently used the anatomically inappropriate restroom.

Fifth, we allow everybody into our services, whether they are gay, lesbian, transgender, bisexual, straight, etc. It is our hope that everyone will feel the love of Christ when they attend. We believe that everybody needs to be transformed by the Word of God and the Holy Spirit so that their primary identity will be in their relationship with Christ, and from that will flow a life of obedience to the commands in the Word of God and the calling of the Holy Spirit. That is our desire for all. That being said, we expect all people, when they need to use a restroom, to utilize the restroom that is appropriate for their anatomy.

Sixth, you are free to email Pastor Dennis. It is readily apparent that I have struggled to convey our beliefs in a manner that affirms your value as a person, our love for you, and our desire to see you grow in your faith. I will tell you that throughout this conflict, I have sought his counsel for how to handle this situation. So he is already aware of the conflict at hand. Perhaps he could indeed better convey what I have struggled to convey.

Seventh, regarding your use of the Galatians verse, I'd like to point out several things. First, it is important to note that Paul is addressing a social system that assigned greater or lesser value to different members of society, and that what Paul is seeking to tear down is a differentiated value system in God's eyes. All have equal value. However, what is clear in the rest of Paul's writings is that while all have the same value in God's sight, we each have different roles, and that the distinction in roles can indeed be seen along lines of gender. Nowhere in Scripture is this more evident than in Ephesians 5:21-33 as Paul describes the roles of husbands and wives. They are complementary roles that portray a picture of how Christ loves his church. And given that they represent Christ and the church, these roles are no more interchangeable than the roles of Christ and the church.

Also regarding this verse, the fact that Paul states "all are one in Christ Jesus" reminds us that it is this oneness that ought to be guarded at all times. At Celebration Church, we deeply value relationships. We believe that loving relationships are more important than situations, processes, and plans, and should characterize the family of God, even in the midst of disagreement and conflict. That is why I was so disappointed that our meeting ended abruptly, and that you chose to act out via social media. Repeatedly, Scripture tells us that we are to handle our disputes privately, and that dragging them out into the public dishonors God. Given that Galatians 3:28 is so dear to your heart, I know I can expect you to honor God by preserving the oneness of His people.

Perhaps at this point it would be most productive for you and I to meet with Dennis. You can email him atdennisw@celebrationchurch.org<mailto:dennisw@celebrationchurch.org>, or you can call our main office and set up an appointment with his assistant, Dallas McGlinn, by calling 504-831-9673.

Patrick Eagan

Campus Pastor

Celebration Church - St. Bernard Campus

7500 W Judge Perez, Arabi, LA 70032

504-858-0537

From: Caroline L'huillier [thissupergirlrocks@yahoo.com<mailto:thissupergirlrocks@yahoo.com>]
Sent: Friday, May 24, 2013 1:00 PM
To: Patrick Eagan
Subject: A new start

Hey Pastor,

Thanks for being patient. I've really had to pray about this and during last night's quiet time, I was given a possible solution. I should have told you about this earlier, but this totally slipped my mind.

It looks obvious to me that we are trying to deal with two issues. One is a problem that we will probably never solve and another is a problem that should be very simple but quite often turns a simple situation into an issue.

If we can, I'd like to just address the bathroom issue and tackle the spiritual issue over coffee or bowling someday. Can we agree to disagree on the spiritual causes and effects? If we are welcome like you say, then I think we shall have some pretty interesting visits and coffees.

Now on to the bathroom issue. I have a solution, but I also have a question for you. I need to be able to address bathroom issues and manners with any friends that might attend. To your knowledge, did "Jill" (the girl at the center of this) do anything untoward or "man-ish" while in the bathroom? I mean, if her bathroom usage was "inappropriate" as you describe, then what exactly gave her away?
I'm curious, because if "Jill" did anything stupid or embarrassing like standing up to pee or something else that is a dead giveaway, I need to know. She needs to be told to act right.
In any case, I could just have easily been in that bathroom and had my voice give me away or any one of a number of possibilities. We haven't been socialized as women, so sometimes these lessons are learned the hard way.

Just imagine one of my pre-operative friends attending church in a dress. Now imagine that friend going into the men's room. What do you think is the least disruptive action. Using the bathroom of your presenting gender is the only reasonable option. Imagine one of my Female to Male transsexual friends attending church as the men they are. Now imagine some of these buff dudes using the woman's bathroom. Do you see my point. The least disruptive option is to use the bathroom of the gender you are presenting in.

Do you understand where I'm coming from?

Here's the solution:
As transsexuals under doctor's care, we are given what we call a "Carry Letter" or as it's euphemistically known, "Get Out Of Jail Letter".  A Carry Letter is written by a treating psychiatrist who states that the above named individual is under doctor's care and dressing as the target gender ie: male to female (me) or female to male is part of the treatment process. The need to use the bathroom of the target gender is specifically spelled out in this letter. I've never needed to use the letter and eventually just lost it.
For my part, I'll ensure that each friend I invite has a valid copy of this letter. They should carry a copy just in case, you never know when you might need it.

If we do it this way, you can assure the congregation that anybody who uses the bathrooms are authorized. This way, you won't need I.D. Checks and bathroom brawls will be kept to a minimum

I've included it below. The copy you are being given has been provided with permission by a dear friend.
Please let me know what you think.
Regards,
Caroline

p.s. this is still between us. I've not included anyone else in bcc's or cc's.

-----Original Message-----
From: Patrick Eagan <patricke@celebrationchurch.org<mailto:patricke@celebrationchurch.org>>
Date: Wed, 29 May 2013 08:50:12
To: Caroline L'huillier<thissupergirlrocks@yahoo.com<mailto:thissupergirlrocks@yahoo.com>>
Subject: RE: A new start

Caroline,

I deeply appreciate your desire to make a fresh start. I know that conflict of any nature is uncomfortable for most people, but I recognize that it presents unparalleled opportunities for growth in character and relationships. I also recognize that one of the chief manners in which Christians shall be distinguished from the world is in how they manage conflict among themselves. So I am grateful for the opportunity for us to continue our dialogue.

I enjoy conversations that provoke challenging thought and introspection, so I am always happy to sit down and chat about how gender identity and spirituality intersect. I will need you to make a minor consolation though in order for such a conversation to take place. At whatever future meetings we might have to discuss this issue further, I must have a colleague from our staff present. In the age in which we live, our staff takes seriously allegations of discrimination that our made on social media, so it would be foolish of me not to bring a third party who can validate my own recollection of the conversation. I'm sure you will understand this reservation of mine.

In your email, you suggested a solution whereby an individual would present a letter from a psychiatrist explaining that the said individual ought to use the facilities of the presenting gender. I understand the benefit that this solution presents. Essentially, you'd get what you want, and the church would have a could excuse to reverse its policy for a select group of people. I'm hoping that's an accurate summary of your proposal.

The last time we spoke, I told you that to reverse our policy on the matter would force us to separate from our own theological beliefs about how God creates gender. Again, we can only affirm that we believe that gender is a gift from God, given at birth, and that the roles of gender are both specific and complementary. To accept the solution offered at present would be to deny our own affirmation. As a church, we are theological/spiritual in our nature, our purpose, our mission, our vision, and our values. We simply cannot adopt a bathroom policy that runs counter to our theological convictions.

Let me also address the component of medical advisement. If we were to subject this policy to the modern practice of psychiatry, and by extension our theology from which the said policy is derived, then essentially, we would be elevating psychiatry above the divine revelation we believe the Bible to exclusively behold. We believe even the modern marvel of medicine must be practiced within the ethical boundaries laid out in Scripture. I know that modern psychiatry plays a valuable role in the field of medicine, and that one must work hard to attain such an education. However, there are numerous areas where we would disagree with the advisement of modern psychiatry on moral/theological/biblical grounds. For instance, I know that many psychiatrists recommend pornography for persons with sexual dysfunctions. We most certainly would not affirm such a course of action. I know many psychiatrists would easily recommend that couples divorce. We most certainly do not affirm such courses of action except in the most extreme of instances. And while a psychiatrist may recommend using public facilities in the expressing gender, we would not.

At this point, I expect that the difference in our perspective has been laid clear. So let me just admit that I have no idea what it must be like to wake up each day wishing you had been born the opposite gender, believing that maybe deep down you were supposed to be, but something went awry. It would be fairly audacious for me to even attempt to articulate how I would respond to such a situation. There is clearly a gap in how we view gender identity and function. The most reliable authority I can appeal to is that of Scripture. And when I read Scripture, I see that God created people male and female, and that men and women each play vital, complementary roles in relationships and in society.

I would like to add that I have enjoyed your being a part of our church worship services and Life Groups. You initially asked me if you would be welcomed at our church, and it is my presumption that you feel we have been welcoming for these last 9 months. I see no reason that should change. I have found it unfortunate that, at times, our failure to agree with your perspective on gender identity and bathroom usage has been implicitly construed as a failure to accept you. I find it regrettable that so many in today's world link the ideas of agreement and acceptance. I believe a love/acceptance that only extends to those with whom you agree is first shallow, and second hopeless - because one could never expect to agree with anybody about everything. I would venture to say that we have strived to love you according to the biblical pattern described in 1 Corinthians 13 - with patience, kindness, gentleness, humility, selflessness, temperance, forgiveness, truth, and affirmation. It is indeed my hope that we can continue to do so in the future.

Patrick Eagan
Campus Pastor
Celebration Church - St. Bernard Campus
7500 W Judge Perez, Arabi, LA 70032
504-858-0537

On Jun 2, 2013, at 12:17 PM, "Caroline Anne L'huillier" <thissupergirlrocks@yahoo.com<mailto:thissupergirlrocks@yahoo.com>> wrote:

Hey Pastor,

Its been a few days since my reply to your "you are a sinner" email. I haven't seen your response so I figure that you need some more information. Here goes:

I've had some time to think about and review my reply to the latest email. I feel there are still some topics to discuss.

Let me be the first tell you that you should be ashamed of yourself.
You had a wonderful opportunity to do the right thing and you blew it.
I don't care if you're only the satellite campus pastor, you had the perfect time to make sinners such as me and you feel comfortable in God's house, instead you followed fear and lies in your effort to "enforce" an awful bathroom  policy.

Yet, while you and the "pastoral team" are slapping themselves on the backs for sticking to your interpretation of the Bible and how that pertains to trans people, just remember that the pharisees were also trapped by the law.
I see which side of the law you are on and being a pastor you have a responsibility and purpose that surpasses non-clergy.  I hope God has mercy on your soul.

Not just for what you've done to me, but all the people that are going to come after and be treated the same way.

Forcing us to use the inappropriate bathroom is the quickest way to strip us of our dignity and yours. I hope you're proud of yourself.
Do you realize that by your actions, there are at least two people who will never darken a church door again? Because of you; your church and that stupid policy.
These are people who are very vulnerable and live mostly on the edge, much like those homeless people we gave care packages to a month ago. They're sinners too, btw. Yet we gave them care packages anyway. Do they not sin? Shouldn't we have taken from them the very things that are important to them?
Why do these sinners  get care packages while trans people are shown the wrong door?
It took a very long to get Lauren (the girl at the center of this debacle) to go to church.
She told me that she felt connected in that short time, she even went up front and prayed with Jenn and told me she really liked the service.
Until that is,  she was informed of your policy.
When we met about this the first time, I told you this news would crush her. It did. She moved to North Carolina and told me she would never go near a church again.
If anything happens to her, I'm holding you responsible.
Thanks. I hope you're happy. It would have taken so little to do the right thing.....

Furthermore, about this "long standing" bathroom policy....
You do realize that by calling us sinners and admonishing us for using the "inappropriate" bathroom, it only means that we are just like everybody else, right? Including you. Isn't every sin the same? Why then do you certainly discriminate against us trans sinners? Do you tell the other sinners that because they drink, they can't go to the altar or take communion and drink the simulated wine? What about your worship team? Do they sin? Why are they still on the team? There should be a policy, right?
Do you not sin? Why should we let you preach? Did God call you to preach (I hope He did) and are you still a sinner? Of course you are. Why do you still preach?

Pastor, of course I'm disgusted with these turn of events and wish that this never happened. However,  I'm hurt, embarrassed and most of all sad. It hurts so much to put your heart and soul in a church only to be told you're not worthy.
Of a bathroom for crying out loud!

Also, thanks for putting Jennifer in the middle of your spiritual breakdown. Now she has to choose to support a friend or follow misguided policies. Do you realize the hurt she is going through? Or do you care only of the law?
You still have a brief opportunity to do the right thing.
Please do.
Sincerely,
Caroline

Sent from my mobile

-----Original Message-----
From: Patrick Eagan <patricke@celebrationchurch.org>
Date: Mon, 3 Jun 2013 17:43:31 
To: thissupergirlrocks@yahoo.com<thissupergirlrocks@yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: A new start

Caroline,

It is clear to me that we are not going to come to an agreement on this issue. As I've already stated, our policy on this matter is rooted in our deeply entrenched theological beliefs about gender identity and roles, and those will not change. At this point, there is nothing more that I can say on the matter. So I would recommend that you address further comments and questions to our Senior Pastor Dennis Watson. You can email him directly atdennisw@celebrationchurch.org<mailto:dennisw@celebrationchurch.org>, or you can contact his office by phone at 504-831-9673<tel:504-831-9673>.

Patrick Eagan
Campus Pastor
Celebration Church - St. Bernard Campus
(504) 858-0537

-----Original Message-----
From: "Caroline Anne L'huillier" <thissupergirlrocks@yahoo.com>
Date: Mon, 3 Jun 2013 23:34:29 
To: Pastor Patrick Eagan<PatrickE@celebrationchurch.org>
Reply-To: thissupergirlrocks@yahoo.com
Subject: Re: A new start

So, you believe medical doctors only when it suits you? Kinda cutting off your nose to spite your face, huh?
If you're not even going to try to understand this, what is the point?
I
figured you'd be unable or unwilling to make any changes. I'll get in touch with your pastor to discuss this. Are you available for meetings? 
If we all can't get together before this Wednesday, I'm sure we can get something scheduled through your wonderful Facebook page.

Pastor, Do you understand that I'm not trying to change gender roles at all? 
And; I think our current gender roles are perfectly fine.

The problem is that you and your church are determined to not call this a birth defect even though you don't have a clue of what causes transgender children.

Pastor, if you could calm your fears enough to listen, you could have invaluable insight to a whole practically unreached group of people.
Instead, you let fear and ignorance guide you. 

Be brave pastor you have a tough road to hoe if you're going to treat people you don't understand in this manner.

Sincerely,
Caroline
Sent from my mobile

From: Caroline L'huillier [mailto:thissupergirlrocks@yahoo.com]
Sent: Tuesday, August 13, 2013 8:12 AM
To: Dennis Watson; Patrick Eagan
Subject: Caroline Trans meeting 8/12/13

Pastors Dennis and Patrick,

I would like to thank you both for sitting down yesterday to discuss the difficult matter of trans bathrooms. Although we didn't come to an agreement, the dialog was a huge step forward. I recognize how difficult this day was for you both and acknowledge that I wasn't happy with the decisions made. 

At the conclusion of our meeting yesterday, I was disappointed, dejected and humiliated. Pastor, the message I got from you and your church was that you know you're wrong and but that you don't care. Trying to deal with willful ignorance is probably the toughest part of explaining trans* to anybody. I get so tired of having to prove my existence or my sanity to others; especially to those who should otherwise understand.  

Having said that, please let me extend an olive branch. In light of your promised phone call yesterday afternoon, my restraint that you described in our conversation will continue because of you upholding that promise. 

For my benefit, let me recap yesterday's meeting. Please feel free to add as needed.

We met and it was acknowledged that this church and it's leaders admit that Trans* issues are not covered in the scripture, you acknowledged that eunuchs are both created and made.

That the Church in general and this church in particular are behind the curve on many issues concerning Trans* Christian worship. 

You agree that this "policy" is man made and not a dictate or commandant from God. 

You've continuously asserted that your church is firm in your belief and that actively changing one's gender is a sin and that you have no intention of changing that view, even if presented with scientific evidence outside of psychiatry that Transgenderism can have a biological cause.

We tentatively agree that intersexed individuals exist and that determining gender accurately can be expensive and difficult. 

You mentioned that somewhere in the future proper bathrooms will be created, made, built or simply appear.

Next, let me apologize for my response to your question of our faith. At first I was offended that my faith or lack thereof would be a topic discussion and that my presence and attendance in your church should have been sufficient. I thought you were trying to bait me.

I realize now that my description of my faith is essential for your decision making process.

I told you that I had been saved June 14th, 1994, Here's the rest of that story. 

I was filled with the Holy Ghost on Christmas day 1994 and baptized the same day. God speaks and has spoken into my life. 

As far as my attempts to conform to worldy Christian standards,  I also went to countless retreats, men's meetings, men's groups, small groups, christian life coaching, christian counseling, celebrate recovery, laying on of hands, and annointing of oil, among the ones that I remember. 

Yet here I am

Lastly, please let me suggest that we continue these dialogs. The only way for these deficiencies to be corrected is that we have regular conversations regarding these concerns. Is once a month too much?

With love,

Caroline

From: Dennis Watson <dennisw@celebrationchurch.org>
To: "thissupergirlrocks@yahoo.com" <thissupergirlrocks@yahoo.com>
Cc: Patrick Eagan <patricke@celebrationchurch.org>
Sent: Friday, August 23, 2013 7:12 PM
Subject: Follow-up

Caroline,

I have taken some time to think and pray about this.  Let me respond to your email below.  First, you are absolutely wrong in your perspective when you said, “the message I got from you and your church was that you know you’re wrong and you don’t care.” The truth is, we know that we are right – that the Bible (which we consider to be God’s Word) states that homosexuality, lesbianism and bisexuality are wrong, and that we believe that transgenderism is a form of homosexuality and therefore it is also wrong in God’s eyes.  The second part of that is that we do care.  We care about you and about others regardless of the choices they make or the lifestyles they choose to be a part of, and have demonstrated that we care.  Just because we don’t agree with a person’s particular point of view doesn’t mean that we don’t care about them.

We do not belief that references to eunuchs in the Bible are a reference to Transgender people.  We acknowledge that some people are born with the sexual organs of both males and females, but we do not believe that we should base someone’s morality on a birth abnormality.  Also, while all policies are man-made, we do believe that our policy that we have developed is a good policy for providing the best sort of atmosphere for the majority of our people.  However, because we care about you and about other Trans individuals, we do feel like we need to proceed with creating a restroom that can be utilized privately.

Let me go back to the references in the Bible to eunuchs.  Just because the Bible mentions that some are created eunuchs and some are made, that is a long way from the Bible affirming an existential approach to self-identity where the chief validator is the individual. Identity in the Bible is something created and foreknown by God. There is no Biblical record of a eunuch ever trying to become or re-identify as a woman.

From what you’ve shared with me and from what I’ve read (which is not a great deal), it appears that Transgender impulses are strong.  However, they still don’t match up with the Christian sexual ethic.  Desires must always be brought into alignment with Biblical teachings, no matter how inconvenient or distressful that might be.

Therefore, even though we love you, we are not going to affirm Transgenderism in any way, just like we’re not going to affirm any choices that people we love make that are contradictory to the Word of God.  We don’t mind dialoguing about this from time to time, but we’re not going to change our position and belief in what the Scripture teaches.

Dennis Watson

*******************************************

And here is the intended final email exchange. I haven't sent this latest because I was waiting on a response to the earlier one (you'll see below).

Lacking a response, I decided to post what I was going to email instead. I'm emailing both pastors to let them know I've posted our exchanges. I'll give them equal time if they want it.

This was originally written in Sept but not sent:

Pastors:

Unless you cite scripture pastor Dennis, you're just giving me your opinion. In light of this, let me give you some facts.

Trans* is not a form of homosexuality. In any way shape or form. If you are putting trans* people in that group, then you're dead wrong. I've asked for you two to educate yourselves or even let me fill you in on some of the high points, but it's obvious that you both have no intention of this. 

Therefore, it's not surprising you'd bring up Christian sexual ethics in a discussion about gender. I'd thought that you would have learned that much about gender; if nothing else then by osmosis from our meetings. Besides, christian sexual ethics doesn't carry the clout that it used to. Outside of military intelligence, "christian sexual ethics" has got to be one of the biggest oxymorons ever. Is this the same ethic that allows pastors to cheat on their wives and then return to the pulpit? Is this the ethic that allows pastors to sexually abuse their congregants and get away with it (seemingly)?

I can't compete with a stubborn church. I pity you both and your willful ignorance. 

Therefore, you win.

May God have mercy on your souls.

Goodbye

Warmest regards,

Caroline

p.s. The key to understanding Trans* sexuality is: "Sex is what you do and gender is what you are".

www.thissupergirlrocks.blogspot.com

Hey Pastor,

It was so good to see you guys last Saturday. I was able to literally run into some of my peeps from small group, what a treat. 

Listen, I haven't received a answer to my question that I emailed to you over a month ago, so I'll email you again and give you my thoughts and impressions.

I had the opportunity to show our correspondence to some friends and asked them what they thought of the whole debacle and in particular this passage that you wrote.

I've listened to some pretty interesting explanations, and though I didn't quite grasp it at first and I'm still not sure, but if I'm right, you probably should be chagrined.

So, without an explanation from you, let me tell you what I think you mean...

"we do not believe that we should base someone's morality on a birth abnormality"

I believe I know the answer now, I'm surprised that the irony of what you wrote didn't make you also put a winky-face at the end of the sentence. Something like this: ;); just to let everyone know you were making a joke. 

The funny part is that you're saying that you (the church, your church, or you, I assume) shouldn't base morality on a birth abnormality. 

Indeed.

Yet you do.

So are you now saying that you believe that God does make mistakes? Because that's what it looks like. You called being intersexed a birth abnormality. Which, to Webster this means something unusual or unexpected or abnormal. Which could also mean a mistake. 

The real irony is that I've always thought that being transgender wasn't God making a mistake; but God according to His plan, let my Mom give birth to a baby that had a condition that would one day need to be surgically corrected.

And yet now, you guys think that God does make mistakes.

Incredible. 

Did you come up with that yourself or did Patrick help you? Do you only believe in medical issues you can see and touch? 

Like the Apostle Thomas, maybe? 

How do you, as a seemingly intelligent adult, fail to consider the research that has linked these two conditions and are even described in the same DSM chapter (which Patrick quoted from in our meeting) and yet you both claim this is a choice?

I think the real hurtful part of your letter was the fact that you can so easily dismiss someone else's suffering. I'm astounded at the lack of empathy that it took to utter this pastor: "no matter how inconvenient or distressful that might be".

So we should suck it up because you say? Do you take medicine when your stomach is telling your brain that it is nauseous and your brain forces your stomach to empty it's contents?

How about when you're hungry? Is it your brain that tells your body or your body that tells your brain? You can't see or touch these senses, but you know they're real. Or, do you just ignore it because it's inconvenient and distressful.

Think about that. You're used to thinking about transgender as the mind telling body, but the body can tell the mind as well.

Me

To Dennis WatsonPatrick Eagan

Sep 10

Pastors:

I appreciate your response, pastor, but I have a question about this: 

We acknowledge that some people are born with the sexual organs of both males and females, but we do not believe that we should base someone’s morality on a birth abnormality.

I don't understand what you're talking about basing morality on a birth abnormality. I don't think you're talking to me or addressing a point I made, so could you please explain this to me? Did I mention something about intersex and morality or something. I don't get it.......

Thanks

Caroline

www.thissupergirlrocks.blogspot.com

---

From: Dennis Watson <dennisw@celebrationchurch.org>
To: "thissupergirlrocks@yahoo.com" <thissupergirlrocks@yahoo.com> 
Cc: Patrick Eagan <patricke@celebrationchurch.org> 
Sent: Friday, August 23, 2013 7:12 PM
Subject: Follow-up

Caroline,

I have taken some time to think and pray about this.  Let me respond to your email below.  First, you are absolutely wrong in your perspective when you said, “the message I got from you and your church was that you know you’re wrong and you don’t care.” The truth is, we know that we are right – that the Bible (which we consider to be God’s Word) states that homosexuality, lesbianism and bisexuality are wrong, and that we believe that transgenderism is a form of homosexuality and therefore it is also wrong in God’s eyes.  The second part of that is that we do care.  We care about you and about others regardless of the choices they make or the lifestyles they choose to be a part of, and have demonstrated that we care.  Just because we don’t agree with a person’s particular point of view doesn’t mean that we don’t care about them.

We do not belief that references to eunuchs in the Bible are a reference to Transgender people.  We acknowledge that some people are born with the sexual organs of both males and females, but we do not believe that we should base someone’s morality on a birth abnormality.  Also, while all policies are man-made, we do believe that our policy that we have developed is a good policy for providing the best sort of atmosphere for the majority of our people.  However, because we care about you and about other Trans individuals, we do feel like we need to proceed with creating a restroom that can be utilized privately.

Let me go back to the references in the Bible to eunuchs.  Just because the Bible mentions that some are created eunuchs and some are made, that is a long way from the Bible affirming an existential approach to self-identity where the chief validator is the individual. Identity in the Bible is something created and foreknown by God. There is no Biblical record of a eunuch ever trying to become or re-identify as a woman.

From what you’ve shared with me and from what I’ve read (which is not a great deal), it appears that Transgender impulses are strong.  However, they still don’t match up with the Christian sexual ethic.  Desires must always be brought into alignment with Biblical teachings, no matter how inconvenient or distressful that might be.

Therefore, even though we love you, we are not going to affirm Transgenderism in any way, just like we’re not going to affirm any choices that people we love make that are contradictory to the Word of God.  We don’t mind dialoguing about this from time to time, but we’re not going to change our position and belief in what the Scripture teaches.

Dennis Watson